I have a question regarding Lordship Salvation vs. Free Grace. I was talking to someone about it who follows the teachings of John Macarthur. He said he also believes that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and works play no part in getting or keeping salvation. However the jesus-is-savior site says guys like him, Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron are apostate false teachers, and that Lordship salvation is a heresy. I want to be careful not to stand against brothers who are preaching the Gospel faithfully. I know false teachers can make their doctrines sound as ortodox as possible, but I'm having a hard time seeing where these guys are going heretical. Could you help me with this? Its very confusing. I did find an article and I'll quote it where the author thinks he's reconciled the two positions.

"I would say that both sides of the debate have gotten some things wrong. One side says that a person must commit to Christ as Lord of his life BEFORE he can be saved. But this presupposes that a person even has the ability to change his desires apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. The other side says that all that is needed is faith in Christ and that even if the person never changes--if Christ is never made Lord of his life--then he is still saved. But that view presupposes that the Holy Spirit who is involved in saving faith has no part in sanctifying faith. In other words, both of these views have a defective view of the role of the Spirit--one in salvation, the other in sanctification. I believe that the biblical picture is that although faith alone saves, that faith will result in good works, and in a growing understanding of the Lordship of Christ. Phil. 2.12-13 are important verses along these lines."

Dear Brother Jim,

First thank you for the Birthday greetings. Much appreciated!

Now, John MacArthur, and company, and very subtly preaching a works/Grace mix...while they say out of one corner of their mouth that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, they then from the other corner of their mouth say that a person must commit to Christ as Lord of his life BEFORE he can be saved. This is pure double-speak, and don't buy into it. Dead people cant do anything. They cant have faith, believe, make Christ LORD...nothing. ONLY after being made alive and having imparted TO THEM the Faith of Jesus Christ, only THEN can one HEAR the Gospel call and respond with BELIEF!

After believing, the Holy Spirit baptizes them INTO the Body of Christ and they are SEALED by that self-same Spirit. This cannot be UNDONE. It cannot be UNDONE because all of this is accomplished by God's power, and NOT our own. True believers who continually choose a life of sin will face one of two things, either chastisement, at whatever cost to them in order to get them back on the path that God wants them to be on, or the LORD will take them home out of the way. Such as was the case in Corinth.

However, those Corinthian Saints were just as much Saints and children of God as the most devout Body member. Never forget that point.

These who willingly mix works and Grace, the Apostle Paul says, are accursed! THIS was the problem in Galatia. And the Apostle's response was, right at the beginning of the Epistle, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel...Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9

I hope this helps

Grace be to you and peace, from God: our Father, and The LORD Jesus Christ.

Pastor David

Brother David, Thank you for your reply! You've helped my understanding greatly. I would like to make some observations about this. I discovered something while discussing this issue with a lordship salvationist. When you pin them down, they will say they agree with us on the way of salvation! At this point, they will redefine this doctrine to make it sound completely orthodox. However when they are talking to someone who is not being discerning, the truth of how they really believe will come out. This is how subtle this particular attack of Satan is. When dealing with others like the Jehovahs Witnesses, you can pin them down and they'll admit what they believe about salvation, but they'll just say we are wrong and they are right! They don't continue to try to pretend to be orthodox christians as these LS people do.

Another thing I noticed. Most Christian websites have something on their main page explaining the way of salvation, its usually very easy to find. I went on a "grace to you" John Macarthur websites and after a few minutes of actively looking, I could not find one! Just a lot of articles explaining issues regarding salvation, (one example is an article called 'can a Christian commit suicide and still be saved' ,things like this)but no straight out explanation on how to be saved! OK I'll admit I'm not the most tech savvy person around, but c'mon! on a Christian website, even "I" should be able to spot that! It's easy to find on the LLM website! This website issue may not be a big deal, but I find it very telling as a lot of cult groups are like this too. They are not about getting people saved. They are really about getting followers. Again Brother David, thank you for allieviating my confusion, and I pray that our posts on this issue are a blessing to someone.

Dear Brother Jim, after thinking and praying on this some more, I believe this particular issue needs a lot more light shed on it and scrutiny. Therefore, thank you for bringing this up and getting it posted here in the forum. I pray this turns into a widespread discussion on LLM

Amen Brother David! After further study and prayer on this, I have some more observations I would like to make about the Lordship Salvation issue (from hereafter I will refer to Lordship Salvation as "LS"). It seems that the main complaint of LS teachers is that the rest of us make salvation too easy! They claim we are just making false converts. Now I want to point out that the Gospel of the Grace of God is simple, so simple a child can understand it and get saved. Whether it is "easy" or not is a matter of individual perception, but on the other hand if it is so "easy" as these people say, then why aren't more people saved? Jesus said - Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

If it is really so simple and easy, why are there few that find it? Here is Paul's (actually the Holy Spirit's through Paul) answer - 2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It seems LS people look at other Christians and appoint themselves "fruit inspectors" and stand in judgement of the spiritual state of those believers who do not appear to live "righteously enough" to suit them. They fail to see the sovereign work of God in this matter and simply draw the conclusion that carnal Christians were never saved in the first place, and they have invented this theological construct they call Lordship Salvation as a reactionary and self-righteous attempt to correct this "problem".

In their efforts to promote LS, its proponents call the Gospel we who are non-LS preach "easy believism". To discredit "easy believism", they totally mischaracterize and misrepresent what we teach and argue against what is actually a terrible caricature of Gospel preaching. They have set up for themselves a totally false and indefensible "straw man" to argue against. There are essentially 3 things they claim we say in preaching and teaching the Gospel, again these are misreprentations:

1. They claim we tell people to simply pray the "sinners prayer" and just saying the prayer will save them. ( I have heard many preachers who do altar calls and ask people to say a prayer like this, but all of them very strongly point out its not the prayer that saves you, its the faith behind it! )

2. They claim we tell people that simply believing the facts of the Gospel will save them. (I have never heard or read anyone say this! In fact, if I may speak for all non-LS Gospel preachers and teachers, we point out that simply believing the facts of the Gospel but not trusting Christ in your heart for salvation is the "faith of devils" James spoke of in James ch.2)

3. They claim we tell people they can get saved and live anyway they want, that how they live after being saved "doesn't matter" (What a horrible misrepresentation! Of course how we live matters. And again, I've NEVER heard anyone say such things.)

This kind of obvious mispresenting of Gospel preaching must be intentional, as they claim to know what "easy believism" teaches. There are sites where people "call out" Lordship Salvation preachers by name and tell us what they are saying. I have been looking at sites of avowed LS teachers, and I have yet to see any place where avowed LS people call out BY NAME people they feel are guilty of preaching "easy believism" the way they describe. This also adds to why I believe their misrepresentation is intentional. If they called out "easy believism" teachers by name, they know people would go and check out their sites for themselves, and in doing so they would see these horrible misrepresentations for what they are. Satan doesn't want people going to "easy believism" sites either, because more people might get saved!

The fact that LS teachers are arguing against something absolutely no one is really doing shows what their problem really is. Their problem is not with us or how we teach, it is with the Gospel itself! Clearly the real argument is between them and God, but they have created a "straw man" for themselves to try to avoid it.

Be advised, LS people are convinced they are completely orthodox, and when challenged on LS they will resort to redefining what they teach, or even blatantly contradicting themselves in order to make it seem like they believe salvation is by the Grace of God alone through faith in Christ alone and not by our works, but theyre really just trying to have it both ways. If they really believed in Grace they would reject this Lordship Salvation nonsense for the heresy that it is! They are not only wolves in sheep's clothing, they are wolves who believe they ARE sheep!

Some non-LS people have, as a reaction to LS, termed what they preach as "Free Grace". I reject this on 2 grounds.

1. "free grace" is a redundancy. If grace isn't free then it isn't grace.

2. If what we preach and teach is Biblical, then we shouldn't name it as if its a theological construct invented by men (like LS). What we preach and teach (or should be) already has a name, its called the Gospel of the Grace of God. Acts 20:24

I am given to understand that the debate about Lordship Salvation has been going on since the 1990's. I say the issue is older than that, and was the essential problem addressed in Galatians. There is truly nothing new under the sun. Following after perversions of the Gospel is spiritual harlotry. This "Lordship salvation" is simply an old harlot wearing a new dress.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Grace and Peace to all!